Who Should Support the FLGS?

47 thoughts on “Who Should Support the FLGS?”

1. I’m sorry, but this is a very short-sighted point of view – one that destroys the rpg industry in the long term. RPGs can’t survive without new players. New player are won at the store, at demo games.
   If more people in your area use coupons and buy their games cheap at borders, your flgs has to close sooner or later. Without a flgs in your area, fewer people game, start to game or buy rpg in general. The market for rpg shrinks and if too few are being sold, borders will stop selling them too.
   support your flgs – if it is too expensive, buy a few books less. do it with a good feeling, this is no market for capitalism and cheap prices, it is a market we all have to support if we still want to see it in a few years.

   Sorry for grammatical errors, not my main language here :)

2. I have a different perspective, which might be irrelevant, but I’ll point it out just because I do have that blog that is supposed to talk a bit about gaming in another country than the US, so it’s my territory:

   My own FLGS can’t compete at all with prices from the internet. The reason is rather simple: there are higher taxes on books in my country – Denmark – than in the UK, where Gaming Stuff is generally imported from here. This means that I have actually experienced that a book – I think it was the 4e Demonomicon – cost double the price in my FLGS compared to Amazon. Add to that the fact that none of the D&D centered Wizards events are arranged in my country, I have very little to use the place for.

   For the record the higher tax also affects other gaming products – boardgames, Munchkin and such – and non-game products. It’s not just that Danish people hate books…

3. @Deepfire I understand your point of view, however, I have a wife and 3 kids. My first responsiblity is to feed, clothe, and provide them with shelter. My disposable income is something I value highly.

   I’ve made the point that I think it’s unfortunate, but quite honestly, it’s not my problem. My first responsibility is to my family. That means spending as little as possible on non-essential items. Personally, I like to own everything, whether that is every D&D 4E book produced (I own all except the “Power” books) or every D&D Miniature (of which I have most.) Wizards keeps producing, and I keep consuming. As long as this cycle remains, I’ll continue doing it at the cheapest rate available.

   I understand if someone thinks it’s short-sighted, but the future of the game is the responsibility of the producer, not myself. I advocate RPGs, specifically D&D, as often as possible. Still, it’s not my job to assure that the industry survives. The entire RPG industry could disappear tomorrow and I have enough material to play the rest of my life.

   As for your grammar, your post was actually quite well written. No apologies for it are necessary. Thanks for taking the time to comment!

   @thelodahl That’s actually an interesting perspective and quite relevant to the conversation. I would advocate that a company like Wizards should look at ways to reduce the cost to consumers in a country such as yours. I believe Microsoft has a program that reduces the price of their software in other countries. That’s just good business.

4. Pick up your HotFL.

   Turn it over.

   Read where it says $19.95.

   That is the price that WotC says stores should charge for the product in the US.

   Why can Borders or Amazon sell it to you for $10 or less? Economy of scale and cutting out the middle man. Massive chains purchase product direct from WotC so they receive all revenue after costs. Your FLGS has to purchase it from a distributor who also has a profit margin. In this day and age it is entirely possible that Amazon and co are paying less per copy of the book than your FLGS’s distributor is!

   That means when someone pays $19.95 in Borders, Borders is making probably 60% or more profit – transfer that over every book sale they make. Makes it easy for them to hand out discounts to repeat customers like you and your wife.

   I get the need to support the family (married, 2 kids, 1.5 incomes and a mortgage) but I still prefer to buy my gaming products from the FLGS – if that means I buy 1 book there a month because that’s all I can afford so be it. I’d rather be able to buy 1 book a month and have a place to play with others and just meet and hang out with other gamers than just have online. Sure it costs me a little more here and there if I go to the LGS – but at least I have somewhere to play. (Note I’m not saying never buy online, I do from time to time as well. But the bulk of my hobby money goes to the guy 30 minutes away supporting my hobby.)

   Now when the FLGS isn’t offering you anything, as you outline, then it is fine to take your money elsewhere – that’s cool. But when you are getting the benefits of an LGS and don’t spend your money there don’t be surprised when they close their doors. That “I can have both cheap prices online and an LGS to play at” attitude closed 2 stores I am aware of in my city. You can bet it closes down a lot more brick and mortar stores around the world, especially in the US where Amazon etc really is cheaper.

5. See, I can support my LFGSs (plural) because I have a different philosophy then you.

   I DON’T have every book (including not having the power books). I have the core: PHBs, MMs, DMGs, and a few misc: Dungeon Delve, Player’s Guide, Eb Player’s Guide.

   I have 2 WotC minis.

   I don’t mind paying extra for a book because I don’t get them all, and I can use the money ‘saved’ from not buying the Draconomicon: Pastels and My Little Pony colors and putting to the core book I do want and making sure the little guy gets his due. But I’m like that in many things. I get pizza at the little family run store rather than the Papa Johns, even if it is a few bucks more, because I like to support the little guy over the corporate monolith when ever possible. I’m in a place where I can and choose to do that. I’m not going to force this idea on people though. :)

   It doesn’t make you a monster if you shop at Borders. Free market works when people have the choice to shop where they want to for what ever reasons. Most of the time the reason is money, but there can be other reasons, ideological chief among them.

   I just think it’s a bit disingenuous of you to say you want to support a FLGS then give reasons why you can’t. If you *really* want to buy at a FLGS, then do it. You’ll find a way some how. If you don’t want to, then don’t. It’s not a big deal either way.

   Subject change.

   I’ve bought all my stuff either at one of my two preferred local game stores here in Pittsburgh, PA, or the game store near my buddy’s house in Syracuse, NY. Here’s a quick listing of how and why I have incentive to buy there, just for some more data points in the discussion.

   The first local one here in PA, Phantom of the Attic, is convenient for me. My bus to and from work go right past it, and it’s a 5 minute drive or a 30 minute walk.

   The second one, Legions Games and Hobbys (Yes, I’m name dropping), is where the monthly Gaming Association of Southwestern Pennsylvania (GASP) meets every month. From 11a to 12p every second Saturday of the month, Legions lets GASP use its space for board gaming, role playing, table top, CCGs, and any hybrid of the above. Paid memberes of GASP get a discount on everything they purchase, and Legions has a rewards program.

   The shop in Syracuse, NY, How You Play The Game, has a little bit of everything, comics, manga, figures, minis, rpgs, board games, cards, Hero Clix. Every 3 months or so they have a graduated sale: Buy $100 worth of stuff, get a 20% discount. Buy 150, 25% discount, etc etc, I don’t know the precise break down, but the system goes like that. My friend in town e-mails me and the rest of his buddies and tries to get a large group order to get the higher discount

6. @Deepfire I don’t think the lack of FLGSs is what will destroy the RPG industry in the long term. While I do go out of my way to buy my stuff at mine because I’m fortunate enough to be able to, I disagree with the blanket statement that new players are won at the store. New players can be won in a variety of ways and it’s not my responsibility to support only one way of doing it, especially when I, myself, don’t enjoy playing at my local FLGS. In addition, I would much rather give my money more directly to the producers of the content so that they can stay in business and, perhaps, work on better marketing to get more people interested in the hobby. High to medium production value YouTube videos and podcasts of people enjoying a gaming session are more likely to get me to buy a game. While I think the FLGS is one piece of the puzzle, I don’t find it to be the only one.

7. I’ll definitely be writing a full response to this over on my blog, but you had a question about economics. As someone who used to work at two different game stores, I can tell you that (at least for small game stores) they are sold the products at 60% of the price. If they offered a 40% discount, they would make literally no money. At the stores I worked, they were incredibly generous and sold to the employees at 40% off, meaning we were purchasing products at cost. I imagine a store like Borders or Barnes & Noble, since they buy in such larger bulk, can probably get a much larger discount from their distributors.

8. You stated you played for 7+ hours in a store where you do not normally do business. How do you think the store owner felt watching you walk the aisles, return to your game, never spent a dollar, then blog about how supporting his store was not your problem.

   I support my FLGS. They support the local Cons. Without a FLGS, Wizards will not support a Con. I only attend 1 or 2 of the 4 local events. I appreciate that there are 4 local events a year, and that the local store takes the time and effort to support as many events as possible. Sounds like the Borders store has a good display of the products you are interested in. What if it didn’t. How many items did you see walking the aisles that you had never seen at Borders, or Amazon, that caught your eye?

   I know the math behind how Amazon and Borders can undercut the FLGS and still make money. The gaming industry is unlikeky pull their books from your favorite sellers. In fact, the warehouse chains exert a lot of influence on the publishers.

   Wizards introduced Encounters to try to help people get into or back into the game. They introduced the premier store concept to give the FLGS a competitive edge against the warehouse chains, they get the products 2 weeks early. That may be of zero value to some people. Some people were sad when Blockbuster killed off the last of the family owned video stores. Others cheered. Walmart functions as a defacto censor in some communitites by restricting what products they carry. Lessened somewhat by Amazon and the online retailers, but still a powerful force.

   When the unintended consequences of the loss of FLGS’s in your area is finally evident, it may be too late to turn things around. Have you thought through every angle?

9. I agree with Sarah. We have a nice local game shop, but I don’t play there. I don’t think that it’s the primary source of new players either. I’d bet there are more first time or lapsed players getting into hobby gaming at a friends house than who spontaneously decide to walk into a hobby shop.

10. Excellent discussion! Here are my preferences and activities – just to add more anecdotal info to the conversation.

    I do not play at my FLGS for a few reasons:
    1. It is a 2 to 2.5 hour drive from my house, making it a hardship at times, especially when the weather is bad, so I just play at home or in a conference room at work
    2. Organized WotC events aren’t what I am looking for (and I wouldn’t make the encounters on-time anyway, weekday + timeslot = bad for me)
    3. Like @Sarahdarkmagic, I do not enjoy playing in the store, though I understand others do

    I do, however, buy from this same FLGS whenever I can:
    1. The only time I do not buy from them is if they do not have the product I am looking for. For example, I recently purchased Deadlands Reloaded from CoolStuffInc.com because my FLGS did not have it (interestingly, CoolStuffInc also has 2 brick and mortar stores).
    2. I also buy from Borders and Barnes & Noble if I see a product I want and I have a coupon. I don’t go there specifically for gaming items, but if I am there and they have it, I may buy it.

    I do not believe that the RPG industry is predicated on activity at the FLGs. Yes, the FLGS is a part of it (a large part even), but its not the entirety of it. If it was, then places like WotC wouldn’t sell to the big box stores. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Borders and Barnes & Noble have to buy a great deal of product from places like WotC in order to stock all their locations and get a big enough discount to rationalize stocking the product.

    I would go so far as to say that Borders and Barnes & Noble are a large part of WotC’s business. If the FLGS goes the way of the dinosaur, Borders and the other big box places will still offer WotC products.

    I’m rambling now, but here is my main point: Purchase of product is what is supporting the RPG industry. It doesn’t matter to WotC where you buy it, just that you buy it.

    (aside: I know that it matters to the FLGS owner, but that is not the point of this discussion)

11. Great post, Alio. I think that John Pope hit on the real reason for the problem, but didn’t nail it down. This issue could go away, if the antiquated “distributor” system went away. Direct purchasing from the publisher by Amazon, B&N, & Borders is why those store can discount. No middleman is taking a cut. The FLGSs don’t have that advantage. Based on the fact that most FLGSs I’ve seen charge full recommended retail sale value, I’m guessing that middleman cut is WAY high.

    With today’s computerized sales & shipping systems, there’s no reason that FLGS should be forced to buy from a distributorship. WotC (and other gaming companies) should all the stores to buy directly at them. While I wouldn’t expect individual stores to get the same volume discounts as Big Box stores, they could at least gain a higher margin so that they can vary the price at the retail level. Offer special sales, discounts, etc. Store still makes a profit that way.

    Alio, I’m with you. I shop at Amazon & the Noble Barn because of the price, and the price alone. I don’t blame the stores (their hands are pretty tied), but I do blame the Publishers for not utilizing modern technology to distribute their product directly.

12. There is no guarantee that the Big Chain (in this case Borders 40%) can afford the discount they are giving you. Business history is littered with price wars that destroyed the “winners” business. They were left with massive market share and customers who wouldn’t pay what the goods cost. With no profit margins they suffer a slow death. If they funded the price war with loans the collapse can happen a lot quicker.

    I’ve seen a slightly less dramatic scenario happen a few years ago. A Big Chain started carrying hobby board and card games (as opposed to the usual chess and monopoly) in the run up to Christmas alongside all their other stock. They paid the same price as FLGs. They heavily discounted cross supporting the cost from their regular sales. The FLGs best sales period was badly affected. The Big Chain made no money on selling the games. In January they returned a lot of the stock to the distributor on sale or return. What they didn’t they discounted to below cost price at the discount chain they owed. The FLGs took another hit in sales. The Big Chain got out of board and card games as a failed experiment.

    The one thing in favour of the survival of FLGs is that in every generation there are some gamers who so love the hobby that despite the risk and poor rewards set up an FLG. Occasionally they manage to survive the risky early years.

13. @John Pope You’re really highlighting what I’m saying. The key is the publisher and the prices they have the power to dictate. Wizards could charge less to the distributor, who could then pass the savings down to the store. I am struggling to remember the computer company that utilizes this right now, but there is one that sells direct to the consumer at the same price you would find the same model on the shelf at a store.

    @Mike Hasko I eat at local pizza places too, rather than chain stores. That’s because I’m a New Yorker and it tastes better though. ;-)

    I don’t see how what I’m saying is disingenuous though. What I’m saying is that someone further up the food chain than myself, the store, or even the distributor needs to make it financially sensible for me to go to the LGS. Right now, they don’t.

    As for those rewards programs you discuss, that’s good incentive on the part of the store! It would be along the same lines as my membership at Borders (or more properly, my wife’s since she has the “upgraded” paid membership.) I think it’s a great move by the store, but it seems a bit unfair to me that the store has to do this with no incentive from the publishers whose wares they peddle.

    @Sarah Darkmagic Well said, and a point I hadn’t even considered earlier! Money directly to WotC keeps them in business, producing and marketing the game. Even if the LGSes all close, if Wizards is still around, the big-box stores, Amazon, and even they will still be able to sell the material.

    @Mark If a store were able to push discounts that were reasonably in the ballpark of Borders’ discounts, I’d be much more apt to support them, at least once in a while. Even a 25% discount off cover price would have got me to buy from the store last Saturday.

    Again though, the onus I believe, is on the producer. Just to make an example, WotC could offer a lower price to the distribution channel than they do to Borders. In turn, the distributor could offer the store a lower price, and the store could offer a lower price to the consumer.

    @Kevin I think you’re right about the store owner. He didn’t even look at me as I walked out of the store, and I don’t blame him. (I have spent money in there before though.) I’m not blogging to pick on him though. This post has a deeper message, and the question in the title is really more than: “Should I Support My LGS?”

    As for products he had that I’ve never seen on Borders’ shelves, the answer is: none that I care about. Sure, he had lots of stuff from other publishers, but I don’t play any system but 4E, and won’t play other systems. So his offerings to me are nothing I can’t get elsewhere cheaper.

    I understand the point of Encounters. I just think it’s not nearly enough. As I showed, Encounters is meaningless to me. Wizards’ attitude that it should only be conducted on Wednesday is not only disappointing, it’s also off-putting to me. It completely excludes me, and many like myself, so what motivation to visit the store does it truly provide?

    If I weren’t putting so much money in Wizards’ coffers, I wouldn’t be able to make an argument, but I buy almost everything they produce. To tell me I’m not worth making their flagship program available to on a weekend day is irritating at best.

    I’m not sure what unintended consequences you’re speaking about. The loss of a con? The store I discussed did start one this past summer so I guess we’d lose that, but it wasn’t there before, so I’d live if it wasn’t again. The only other one with gaming involved is NY Comic Con, and that’ll be there whether WotC is or not.

    @Stuart I’d bet you’re right. I would bet that more players are introduced to games by friends or family who were in turn introduced by other friends and family than those who come in via walking into a game store.

14. @DM Samuel You’re probably right that the big box stores are more critical to WotC’s business. The only two things I would say, however, are:

    1) Wizards has often talked about how the LGS is the backbone of the hobby and their business. They claim that they want to support that arm of the business. I feel they do a lackluster job of it though.

    2) I feel bad for the store owner. It’s not his fault he’s being outpriced by a megacorp entity that can buy trailerloads of product. He’s still plugging away doing his part though, and I’d like to see more support for him.

    Perhaps my point wasn’t clear enough in the post, but I really am on the side of the store owner. I want him to succeed and I want to spend money in his store. I won’t do that if I can buy the same exact product at a lower price just down the road though.

15. This is an interesting discussion. First off, I totally sympathize and in a large part agree with Alio. I’m a family man on a budget and barely buy game books anymore, but when I do – I have to look at the price. This means Amazon or Borders with a coupon.

    Do I like my FLGS? Yes. Do I want to support it? Yes. What’s more, I used to manage a FLGS about 20 years ago. Did I dislike being undersold? Yep.

    Back then there was about a 30% profit margin on gaming materials for the FLGS. Even more if you were a distributor for a company (we distributed for Palladium). What lets the big box stores and Amazon cut costs so much is the volume. The FLGS selling 10 books at 30% profit doesn’t even come close to making the profit that Amazon does on selling 500 copies at 5% profit.

    Will the FLGS survive? Maybe. My FLGS and many others are more than just a gaming store. They sell comics, action figures, posters, t-shirts, board games, individual minis and cards and loads of other stuff. Do they treat the customers well? Yes, they treat them very well and they offer in store gaming, costume contests, free comic book day and other things to draw in people.

    I think the FLGS will survive, but I’m not sure it will thrive with the big box and online merchants snagging the sales.

16. “I had little desire to play Gamma World before I heard that each player would be forced to buy boosters in order to play.”
    and
    “I suspect I’m not alone and the entities I’ve mentioned should really start looking at that to determine a way to “fix” it.”

    Look closely, and you’ll see that the entities involved- indeed, the entire industry- have been looking at ways to “fix it” for a while now, and it’s embedded in what you’re saying here, plus some extras.

    Look at Amazon vs. Borders/Barnes & Noble in the first place. Amazon has across-the-board lower prices. Yes, the chains do offer coupons and deals, but if you’re buying more than a book at a time, Amazon wins on price almost every time. Why? Because Amazon buys in huge scale and doesn’t have to run distributed store fronts that cost lots of money to keep up.

    Now look at those book chains vs. FLGS. FLGS typically buy from a distributor (usually Alliance here in the states) which take their cut, because buying and managing from diverse sources that produce games is logistically difficult if not impossible, and ensure regular shipments and restockings. That’s a part of their profit gone right there. Then consider that the adventure game industry is magnitudes smaller then the entirety of the book industry. That means less scale on every level, so the companies printing them in the first place have to have higher prices, and the distributors and stores buying them can’t buy them in as big bulk for enough of a discount. Then also consider that few FLGS are chains, and you have a smaller audience buying from you, both because it’s a niche product and because you only have the one location. Thus, you have a recipe for books having to be priced at the cover price.

    Now, this has been the reality for years now, and all parties know this. WotC knows their business numbers- who is buying from where, and so on. Clearly they feel that both the chain stores and FLGS are important.

    So continuing to take WotC as an example, they’ve done the following things:
    * Schedule game days and Encounters and such. This may not work FOR YOU but it’s clearly doing well for them and the stores. And again, while you may participate in store events without buying anything because you don’t like the prices, there are plenty of gamers who will buy stuff from the store they’re in to support it.
    * Run events like Gamma World Game Day to _require_ that people buy from the FLGS they’re at in exchange for a professionally written adventure, promo cards, and use of the FLGS space that they pay rent on (a decision, btw, I was vocally against, but I think does make sense for that goal)
    * Release product to FLGS early, so early adopters (like myself) can pick up product right when it comes out and cannot buy it other places at a discount. In effect, the consumer pays a premium for early stuff, and the FLGS benefits.

    So it’s not that there aren’t fixes out there, or that the parties involved aren’t aware of the problem, it’s just that they don’t appeal to anyone whose only interest is the bottom line. And that’s fine- if you don’t feel your FLGS is important enough to pay extra and aren’t interested in any of the reasons above, then clearly the answer for you is the bigger box market. As is pointed out above, the game company (WotC in this case) is still getting the money. Hence, why they support both.

    NOW, for smaller companies who cannot get into a Borders or similar, the situation is different… but that would be a whole other topic.

17. With regards to the idea that killing the LGS will kill the RPG industry, Mike Mearls and David Noonan admitted that the number one entry point for new gamers was still the “older cousin.” That is someone already in the hobby brings a friend, relative, child, or whatever into the game. This was on an episode of the D&D podcast. My current group consists entirely of people I brought into the hobby (two of whom are actually cousins). That has been my MO for most of my DMing life. I’m not putting that out there to suggest that supporting the LGS is a bad idea. I’m just suggesting that screaming doom and gloom about the death of the gaming store may be a little bit of an exaggeration.

    There is no question that outlets like Amazon, Borders, and Barnes & Noble can offer deep discounts due to economies of scale. They also represent a substantial market share and WotC certainly can’t afford to cut them out. WotC needs them. WotC can’t inflate their prices without risking being taken off the shelves and WotC needs Amazon, Borders, and Barnes & Noble more than the retailers need WotC.

    As for the “dollar vote” ideological argument, it really doesn’t work rationally. Most people have a fixed amount they can afford to spend on things like RPG products. And that means they have to choose between buying one product at an LGS for $40 or two products at Amazon or Amazon for $20 each. So, my ideology might cost me an extra WotC product. As a side note, if you were WotC, which would you prefer, especially when you factor in that WotC probably isn’t getting much more from the $40 purchase because much of that markup goes to the distributor that sells to the game store.

    Does that mean its hopeless? LGS are doomed to die? Well, that may be the case in the long run, but it doesn’t have to be. If WotC wants to help out the LGS, they have to figure out a way to offer additional value to LGS customers. Like, say, offering their products two weeks before the street date. Some people are willing to pay a premium to get their books two weeks early.

    Unfortunately, in-store events really don’t do that much. As AlioTheFool notes, he will happily participate in a free event and then take his money elsewhere. Again, this is an entirely rational, reasonable way to behave. There is nothing amoral about it, regardless of what anyone wants to tell you. If I offer something for free, I can’t complain that people don’t compensate me for it. Yes, they do get people in the door and some of those people probably do spend money in the store, but, unless the LGS does something more with that event, they aren’t going to get much of a sales boost. Perhaps offer a promotion that is economically feasible. “On game day, buy a copy of the game you just played and we’ll throw in a half-price set of power cards of your choice (because that product bombed and we can’t get them to sell).” Wizards could further encourage this if they really wanted to: “Buy a copy of the game you just played at full price and get one month free on DDI so you can build your character. Available only at your LGS on game day.” Wizards could even offer something inexpensive but exclusive that LGS could sell as part of the game day promotion. “Buy a copy of the Red Box on D&D Game Day and get a free exclusive dragonborn mini (that is identical to the dragonborn mini we just released but with a different paint job).” Of course, these offerings only boost sales on game day and probably won’t bring people back for more product. They will still return to a big box retailer or Amazon.

    However, the LGS also offers something that Borders and Barnes & Noble do not (though Amazon does). Most LGS stores offer a wide range of products that big box stores don’t carry, including older editions. Unless, of course, there was some reason why they couldn’t offer older, out of print editions. And there was some controversy about WotC’s rules for retailers carrying 4E back at release time because they were trying to stop the sale of older editions, wasn’t there? The LGS can offer older editions, rare and hard to find items, individual minis, a better selection of dice, and so on. Of course, none of these things put money in WotC’s pocket, but they are the real reason people go to their LGS instead of a box store or online outlet.

    At the end of the day, the onus is not on the consumer to choose to spend more money because of some misplaced sense of morality or ideology. That’s irrational decision making. The onus is on the LGS to find ways to offer things that the other retailers don’t or can’t, things that actually make money or justify paying a premium for products that are available cheaper elsewhere. And personally, WotC offering promo codes to the LGS for one month free on DDI helps both the game store and WotC. Competition in the free market is supposed to ensure that consumer gets the best value for their dollar by forcing companies to compete for those dollars. Amazon, Borders, and Barnes & Noble can offer cheaper prices. The LGS has to find a business model to take advantage of the things they can offer that those outlets can’t. And WotC is trying to help, but expecting them to do more is much the same as expecting people to pay twice as much for the same product for no additional value.

18. @deadorcs BINGO! That post encapsulates the entire discussion. Some day I’ll learn to say so much with so few words!

    @Mark Caldwell There’s no other way to say it, but that sucks for that store.

    I think the group in every generation you’re thinking of is more likely young people. The tv commercial demographic (18-29, single and male.) That is the group with the most disposable income. It’s probably also the group most likely to have the time to play in something like Encounters or a Game Day. I just think this industry is a different animal than the auto business or clothing. This industry can grow further if older players such as myself introduce younger players, whereas a kid is likely not going to listen to me regarding driving a sensible vehicle.

19. @deadorcs: I should note that WotC does offer the option for retailers to purchase directly from WotC based on their FAQ for retailers. I don’t know the details though, and the option may be available only in specific cases. However, due to economies of scale, it is important to remember that it is often not cost effective for the publisher to set up its own distribution except in very large quantities. Its one thing for WotC to ship a gazillion units to Amazon’s warehouses. Its another for them to ship 10 units to Duluth, 12 units to Peshtigo, 9 units to Outer Zambia, and so on. In general, publishers don’t want to be distributors and will only do so when they can take advantage of economies of scale.

20. @Alio

    I agree that WotC wants to support the FLGS. I think that their program is not fully inclusive, which seems to go against its own purpose. I’m not sure, though, that I agree that the FLGS is the “backbone” of the hobby. To me, the FLGS is the place I buy stuff. Even when I was first getting into the hobby, we didn’t buy our stuff at a hobby store or RPG store (they didn’t exist back then). So maybe my views on that are skewed. I haven’t brought anyone into the hobby by meeting them at a game store – I have always done it by word of mouth and personal networking.

    I also want to make clear that I am NOT anti-FLGS. As I stated earlier, I buy from the FLGS whenever I can and I enjoy giving them my business. I support them and I feel for the small business owner that is struggling.

    But I won’t lie and say that I don’t buy products elsewhere when they are cheaper. I shop at Target and the “cheap” grocery store in my area. I buy things online and I try and shop around for the best possible deal in everything I buy. Perhaps this comes from growing up relatively poor? In any case, I purchase things at a discount when possible, just because I have a hobby that I love doesn’t mean I stop looking for bargains in the things I buy.

21. Last weekend I went to my Favorite Local Game store for WWGD. I actually drove past 3 others to get there, because the owners and old friend. We had 8 people playing for close to 5 hours. Three of the 8 made purchases. While I was there, he got 6 additional customers, I think only 3 made purchases, but I was paying more attention to Porkers than shoppers.

    So on a Saturday he got 15 customers over a 5 hour period. He owns one store.

    Last time I was in Borders there were 15 people in the Children’s Section, 15 in the Cafe, 8 in the Music Section, and probably about 15 browsing the store. This was in the 25 minutes it took to find my book(5 minutes), and convince the 4 y/o he couldn’t buy the entire Thomas the Train section(20 minutes). If even 1% of the borders shoppers made a purchase, they’ve had higher sales than FLGS.

    The owner of this Border’s has 4 other stores in this market area.

    So if he gives up 60% of his profit, and his expenses are 50 times that of teh FLGS, he’s still made more profit at the end of the day. THAT’S where your 40% comes from. Get 300 people to go by the FLGS and buy 1 book a week, and he’ll start offering 40% off too.

22. It’s pretty simple. You have x dollars of disposable income to spend on your hobby. You can choose to buy from and support your local small business FLGS and get fewer items, or you can get more stuff from the super-retailers to use economy of scale and run on razor-thin margins to drive the local competition out of business.

    The same can be applied to lot of niche/hobby/specialty retail. And once they are run out of business, selection will dwindle as the super-retailers focus on the best movers. And once the competition is snuffed, they can ratchet back up on prices.

    It’s up to you who you want your X dollars to support.

23. @Chompa Thanks for your insight.

    @Dave T. Game I understand what you’re saying (and on the topic of Gamma World, I used to say at every D&D Game Day that they should be forcing people to buy something in the store for the privilege of playing there that day. I just made an example of Gamma World to show it was one more thing on top of why I wasn’t attending.

    As for the Encounters program, I believe it is successful, and more power to WotC and the stores for it. I just think they’ve done me and people like myself a disservice, which garners less loyalty from me in the future.

    It’s not all about price, and I think you’ve missed the point. It’s the fact that I can get exactly the same experience elsewhere and pay less.

    @The Angry DM I think you’re starting to hit on my point. Let’s just say that it’s impossible to reduce the cost of products inside a LGS. A WotC program that provides things like a free month of DDi, or an “exclusive” miniature with purchase would go a long way to making me consider buying from the LGS!

    Out of the box thinking grows sales.

24. @DM Samuel Fair enough. I’m pretty sure Chris Tulach of Wizards mentioned something along the lines of the word “backbone” when discussing the Encounters program. I may be misremembering (thanks Roger Clemens!) that though.

25. @William Bounty I understand economies of scale. Again, the point being missed is that the incentives need to come from someone higher up the chain than the LGS owner. Hence the question: “Who Should Support the FLGS?” ;-)

    @Oz I agree. Will I be a driving force to kill the RPG industry? Maybe. In the end though, as The Angry DM has pointed out, I’m under no moral obligation to help the stores survive.

26. @AlioTheFool: Well, I don’t know about your point, but that’s my point: give me something to justify the extra money I have to spend. Don’t ask me to support you out of the kindness of my heart because I haven’t got any kindness in my heart. And don’t cry about how you’re being undercut. That’s business. Figure out what you’ve got that they don’t and capitalize on that. If WotC helps, great. If not, do it yourself.

    Hell, the LGS I sometimes frequent has a big ole case of individual D&D Minis. On game day, pull out the cheaper ones that look like PCs and let players who buy Heroes of the Whatever pick one for free. Very small cost to the LGS, but it gets people buying. Offer small but periodic discounts on your slowest days. Every Tuesday is WotC day! Get 5% off any one WotC product. Thursday is Paizo day! Again, its a small discount but it increases traffic on your slow days and when people hear a new WotC product is coming out and you’ll have it two weeks early and its coming out on WotC Day, they will be more inclined to come to your store than to wait two weeks for Amazon. Sell refreshments and snacks on WotC event days. Buy them cheap at Costco and mark them up high. Gamers eat snacks. And now you are grabbing revenue from the “free event.”

27. I love the FLGS as much as I love any boutique shop (whether for gardening supplies, specialty foods, etc). I like having the ability to browse the large selection and make a same-day impulse purchase. While B&N has a lot of D&D and hobby board games, they never have a complete selection on hand, so it’s hit or miss if they’ll have what I want in stock. So I choose to spend a percentage of my hobby dollars at the store to help keep them in business, but still spend a bunch online to make my money go further.

    Even though they convenient, I don’t think the hobby needs gaming stores to survive. When I was younger, I had no trouble finding role-playing books at book stores and comic stores. We didn’t get a dedicated game store until after Magic took off.

28. I had a longish reply but then I decided that no one cares about whether or not I buy at a FLGS…

    Ultimately (and this is probably an obvious statement), I think everyone should just do what they are comfortable/able to do. If you want to spend money at your FLGS, you should. If you want to buy online at Amazon (et al), you should. We all know our own financial situations and are responsible for making the decision that’s best for us.

29. I’m truly enjoying the discussion, but I wanted to point out that it seems disingenuous to suggest that the alternative to buying a single book at the FLGS is to buy two at a Big Box.

    Should I follow Mike’s example and limit myself to the core books plus a few exceptions, I’d still save enough by buying online with a larger store to cover my PAX hotel room or to buy pizza for everyone at the table for a couple of games.

    In the end, it’s a large amount and suggesting to pay more for the same product without additional service or perks seems absurd.

    On a related note, I wanted to share another counter-FLGS for family men/women. By ordering online, I not only save ~40%, but I also save the 1 hour round trip to the store itself, time being an essential resource in my particular situation (and for many adult gamers I imagine).

30. The phenomenon of in-store play of RPGs is in large part a recent addition to the RPG tradition. I’ve been playing RPGs since the early 1980s and in all that time I’ve met fewer than 10 people who got their start by playing in a game store. Virtually everyone I know started playing at someone’s home. Similarly, most indie RPGs are sold due to con demos, play at someone’s house, or word of mouth: The number of stores who sell indie RPGs, let alone have in store play of them, is very, very small. In fact it seems that the only game that I’ve ever seen played in a GS is 3rd or 4th edition D&D (including Pathfinder). I’m sure there are stores out there where RPGs are played regularly in store (D&D Encounters BTW is an unusual program since while it is designed to foster play in stores, it’s also imposed upon stores if they want to become primier stores and get early access to new releases which is vital to give them an edge over online retailers; thus it’s not an entirely altruistic offering from WotC). All this is just to say that I’m really not convinced of the need or really the value of most FLGS in the RPG market – their involvement, from a business standpoint, is not really necessary nor really smart given the relativley low sales numbers and lack of repeated sales unless you’re selling stuff exclusively from the WotC product treadmill.

31. I have to throw in my two cents here even though it is most likely just echoing things already said by others. I have never met an RPG player who found out about the hobby because they saw the product in a FLGS. Every one of them found out about it from a friend / relative and then went to the FLGS to buy what they needed. That was before the internet. I think the internet really changes the discussion. These days I would say it is more likely a person will find out about RPGs accidentally because they are visiting something tangentially related such as a video game or webcomics website/forum. Add to this the fact that they can get the materials at half the cost via Amazon and potentially meet local players via forums and meetup sites and what is the FLGS really bringing to the table? None of the local FLGS that I know of run anything but Magic tournaments and maybe Warhammer, even if they did they cannot possibly make up more than the tiniest fraction of RPG players in my city (half a dozen to a dozen stores running a game or two a week. I sure hope there is more gaming going on than that in a city of a million people). So to say that the FLGS is the heart of RPGs is I think not taking a realistic view of the situation. It is friends and relatives playing at home I think that make the bulk of the players out there and if they can buy more books by getting them from Amazon then at the end of the day would that not benefit WoTC more? So I guess what I am trying to say is that comparing how things used to happen in the 90s to how things will happen now that the internet is on the scene is not a fair comparison. The FLGS is no longer the sole source of information and products that it used to be so it’s importance to both players and producers is greatly diminished.

    (None of this is to say that I don’t like my local FLGS, I do, I just buy other products there besides rulebooks and I certainly don’t go there to find out what is going on in the hobby or play)

32. @The Angry DM I agree with you. While my original point was just discussing things like the publishers changing the economics, the stores can do things to help their own cause. There are many facets to this conversation’s solution.

    @Mike It’s interesting that you say that. Thinking back, it wasn’t until Magic:The Gathering took off that LGSes started popping up around here too. However, before that, Toys R Us used to have a 4-foot-wide section of magazine rack-style shelves filled with D&D books. I guess that’s what WotC is eyeing Target for now? I’m not sure if end-caps on the opposite side of the aisle from traffic is really the right place though.

    @KatoKatonian I absolutely agree with you. The heart of the matter I was trying to get at though was that the publishers should be making a greater effort to make shopping at a LGS comparable to shopping at a big box store, if not Amazon. Everyone is going to make their own choices, but I’m calling on the top of the supply chain to make it desireable to shop at the boutique.

    @Cardinalis Yes, the time savings is often a factor in decision making as well. For me, I’m going to Borders at least once a week, with my entire family, since my wife, children and myself are all avid readers and my wife and I are completely addicted to Seattle’s Best Lattes. Those are additional twists that make it harder for the LGS to garner my attention.

33. @MJ Harnish & @Titan You’ve both talked about the same basic point, so I’ll respond jointly. It’s a good point that bears repeating: what does the store bring to the table?

    Let’s assume the store can never bring down the price (which I still don’t believe is the case if the publishers work with them.) The only other logical step is to offer a better overall experience than the big box store. Obviously that doesn’t fight Amazon, but I’m not sure any store, including a Borders, can compete with Amazon at a price level, and there’s nothing else Amazon can offer that any brick-and-mortar can’t do better.

    Help from publishers with lower prices, more in-store events and promotions (especially- but not exclusively- supported by the publishers,) and a great atmosphere are critical components to pushing LGSes forward.

34. As someone who runs encounters and gameday events. I understand.
    We offered a Saturday session, tried moving it to Sunday, and interest was zero. My counterpart in another city runs 1 table every Saturday, sometimes 2 tables.

    I think Encounters would have more appeal if WotC made it clearer that running the sesson a few days late is not a problem, and were more accomodating to people who have different needs. One DM who ran seasons 1 and 2 dropped out because class conflicted. I will need to make arrangements for the last few sessions of this season for similar Spring semester conflicts.

    The Gamma World Game Day thing annoyed me too. I had 2 players walk away from the table when informed they needed to buy 2 packs of boosters, and heard through a forum that a whole table’s worth of players skipped the event because of the required purchase. (Both players who walked away were offered 2 boosters packs each to borrow for the game, and declined, so there may have been more going on.)

    I thought the store was supplying the boosters, which would have been generous. I agree that no one should pay to play in a demo. Gamma World’s latest incarnation may have a very short lifespan without some very well written house rules to make it better than a goofy oneshot game. Several bloggers are floating ideas, and I expect to see a lot come over the next several months, after the rest of the expansions release. The card mechanics being just 1 of several issues with this version.

    As far as unintended consequences, I appear to have left out unforeseen. I was not refering to anything specific.

    I understand your pain, I am married, over 40, 3 god kids (none of my own) 1.2 incomes (PhD students make a pittance). I play 4e. but have always borrowed from other systems, sometimes they make great sourcebooks, even if the mechanics are clunky. GURPS being a great example of sourcebooks that used to outsell the mechanics books (not meaning to slam GURPS, I am not sure how they stack up today)

    To survive, the FLGS are looking in new directions. Becoming a destination, not just a store. Opening an online store in parallel with their brick and mortar store. I have heard some others, but cannot recall the details.

    Not all markets have big box stores with solid RPG collections. Not all systems are carried in the big box stores, or online. Some people like to connect with other gamers at a FLGS. Some people prefer public play to private play.

    Travelling an hour each way to play, or visit a FLGS makes little sense. I fully understand, in that type situation, you are supporting some oil company as much as you are the game store.

    Every situation is unique. Every store is unique. Some just want to charge cover, and get by. Others are looking to add value to that purchase, in small or large ways.

    I get 25% off on preorders when I prepay. That, added to the 2 weeks advanced release (very helpful when running Game Day events) makes the store here worth supporting. Personally, I like playing at home and only use FLGS space for private games when the wife needs a break from having 4 to 6 more guys over all day.

    I don’t think there is a single answer to the question that covers more than a third of possible situations. I don’t think it comes down to just % discount in every situation either. Then it becomes a simple race to the bottom. The deepest pockets win, always.

    Look at what your FLGS does for you, and what it costs you. If they could do better, make a suggestion. If they say anything more strongly worded than “I have looked into that, and it is just not cost effective, but I welcome your suggestions on ways to improve” then maybe they flunked being a FLGS.

35. @Kevin Very good post, and there’s not much I can add. Yes, perhaps the answer does lie in the hands of the individual store, I just felt it was something publishers could help with, but haven’t.

36. Has anyone heard of the FLGSs forming a non-profit co-operative to order gaming books in bulk and handle the distribution themselves?

    Surely they could do it for less than the existing distributors are charging them?

37. If I had a FLGS, I would be happy to support it. I’m not saying that I would buy everything at the shop. Amazon would still get some business, but since I am an impatient, gotta have it now type of person I don’t mind spending a little extra for some products.
    I do the same with comic books. Once per year I take $200 and subscribe to all the DC and Marvel books that I “can’t miss”, then I get all the books that are 1) not offered through subscription and 2) books that I want but won’t be upset if I miss an issue, mailed to me from the closest comic book shop (about an hour away).
    The shop owner is a great guy who takes good care of me as a customer so I don’t mind overlooking the fact that I can buy almost everything I get from him at an online store for 1/2 the price. If I had to buy all my books from a shop I wouldn’t collect 1/3 of the books I do now and he’d lose even more money because I would only be buying the books that I currently subscribe to and I would never touch any mini-series or new books.

    So even if there was a FLGS in my area I would support it, but I wouldn’t give up on finding good deals online. I’d probably use the shop for the gotta have it now items, supplies and older items, but buy online for more expensive items.

38. @Colmarr That’s actually a really good idea but I’ve definitely never heard of a gaming store doing it.

    @Geek Gazette It sounds like you’re a supporter out of the goodness of your heart. That’s great, but it’s antithetical to me. Just being a nice guy isn’t enough to get me in the door to a store. That’s no knock on you though. It’s admirable that you’re willing to support a store. I really think it’s people like yourself that keep these small stores in business. Going back to the subject of the post though, I wonder if it should be you.

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41. Strange when using your name makes you anonymous.

    I know a guy that has a bait and tackle store, I used to take trips with him over to the manufacturer of a type of fishing reel. This guy had a good relationship with the owner of the reel company, heck it got him a few cool things like prototype reels and stuff to check out from time to time, but when it came to getting stock to sell it could be, and often is still, cheaper for him to buy their products from K-Mart than from the manufacturer.

    This is economy of scale – your LGS doesn’t have it.

    I happen to have receipts issued to me by Games Workshop in my filing cabinet from when I used to run a gaming store. Games Workshop sells direct to each individual store, no middle man in many countries. It would have been cheaper for me to buy GW products from Diamond Distribution (aka Previews) at times (including getting it shipped from the US) than GW in my country.

    This is also economy of scale – your LGS still doesn’t have it.

    Take a look at the cost of getting a print on demand book done. I could find $140 a book for 10 copies of something like HotFL, through to $47 a book for 500 copies. You can probably get other prices but it gives you the idea. Now 15 years ago an author I know got a good deal, the print run of her first novel was 10000 copies. You can bet that means the price was low to the publisher. I believe you need to take pre-orders for a similar number of issues of a comic to get it carried by companies like Diamond Distribution.

    A gaming store that turns over 30 copies of a new WotC book in the first couple of weeks is doing pretty good in my experience. Getting to case quantities means you get a better price, but it usually takes ordering 2 or more cases to do that. On the WotC (or other publisher end) it is simply more expensive in man hours to handle all those little orders, hundreds of micro-orders, and they are micro-orders, take a lot of man hours. Man hours mean money, and someone has to provide that money, and that someone is the customer. Just like the guy I know buying his fishing reels, so it is with gaming companies. The less man hours it costs them to provide the product the less they can charge for it.

    Now you can say “but they could charge the big companies slightly more, and the little guys slightly less” but you are not really accounting for the scale difference.

    Let’s say your LGS buys 30 of the next DnD book, now lets be way generous in the staffing and have one person take the order, then pick it then pack it and ship it. Now we can make up the arbitary time of 10 minutes to do all of that, and to keep our numbers easy say that employee makes $24 an hour, so that costs $6 divided across the 30 books or 20 cents a book.

    The same guy then gets an order from Amazon to process, it is for 2000 books, and we will make that take 30 minutes to organise which is a huge $12 in labor spread over all those books or 0.6 cents a book. (You can also bet Amazon gets many more than 2000 of a book.)

    Even if the books themselves were charged out at the same price everything else would cost more for the LGS!

    That is economy of scale hard at work.

    Now WotC can do things to help your LGS get customers in, but really the job of getting customers in belongs to your LGS. It is their business and if they want your money they need to be “value adding” to the products in order to ensure you spend your dollars with them. If they add enough value you spend your money in their store and not at a big chain or online. If they don’t you don’t. That is ok.

    My only issue is when people expect to get the value adding of the LGS (place to play, people organising games, etc) and then don’t spend their dollars there. If you are doing that then you have to accept you are going to loose that value adding stuff, and you don’t have a right to complain when it is gone. It is only when people complain about their LGS closing after they chose to buy from their competitor that I have an issue. You buy from a competitor you hurt the LGS.

    So no WotC selling direct will not help.
    No your LGS isn’t the best way to start new gamers (usually).
    No every LGS closing isn’t going to be the end of gaming.
    But if you are not buying from your LGS, don’t be surprised if it is gone one day when you go there to play.

42. @John Pope All of that is fair, and again, I understand economies of scale. The question really goes back to the beginning though. Who Should Support the FLGS? As you said, if all of the LGSes close, it’s not the end of gaming. So is it really the gamers’ responsibility to keep it open? Is it the publishers’?

    Personally, it’s inconsequential to me either way. I’d like for Ravenblood to succeed. I like the people, I like the store. In the end though, it doesn’t matter to me if they fail or not. I’ve only been there a couple of times. As I mentioned in the comments somewhere Ravenblood started a local convention this year. It was a bit of fun, but there were a lot of games I was completely uninterested in, and if it didn’t return I wouldn’t lose any sleep over that.

    For me, in the end, I like the idea of supporting game stores, but I prefer to support myself.

43. It’s funny how you discuss about prices. Here in Spain, the 4th ed. PH hardcover is sold at 33€. And the Red Box at 30€. The choice is between getting the expensive (and select) translated material, or buy the English originals from amazon.co.uk.

44. Very disappointing to hear the attitudes in this blog, but not surprising. I have run a community space for more than a decade, and the complete ignorance of people that utilize something for nothing is beyond the pale. If you are spending hours in a space and not planning to purchase anything, then at least have the decency to offer them $5 for your time spent there.

    Please support your local shops, especially those that offer a table to for free. No one is forcing you obviously, but if you are not buying then don’t go. See how long you can hang out at Amazon (oh wait you can’t), go see how far you get playing a game at Chapters/Barnes/whatever. Try setting up a Warhammer table in a Starbucks or McDonalds.

    You may save a dollar when you ALWAYS shop online or solo in a warehouse that doesn’t even know what a game is, but you lose the community of the other geeks you meet at your FLGS. RPGs are delicate social constructs that need places like LGS to create real human communities.

    If you are not buying then you should stay in your basement.

45. @Hugh I understand that you have a vested interest in the success of a game store, but I don’t. Cost to me is the only factor in purchasing identical products from one place or another, which D&D books/minis/boardgames are.

    Interestingly, I have shopped at the store I mentioned in the post a few times. I’m pretty sure I’ve at least hit a theoretical “break even” point for the one day I used gaming space in it.

    I’m actually planning on stopping by Ravensblood this Saturday for Free RPG Day as well. The past couple of FRPGDs I’ve spent money in the stores giving something away for free, including Ravensblood. I’ll also be checking in at Compleat Strategist in NYC where they treated me very nicely last year for FRPGD (and I spent quite a bit of money in return, and plan to do so again).

    Something interesting that has developed in the months since I wrote the original post is the new killer dungeon program WotC is going to start pushing (the name of which escapes me at the moment). Unlike “Encounters” which WotC states is only supposed to run on Wednesday (and is unsupported any other day) the new program is available to be run any day of the week that the store wants. If Ravensblood runs these on weekends they stand a very good chance of getting me to come to the store. If I go regularly, I’ll certainly spend money there.

    I think this program is going to be a boon to the stores which WotC definitely is looking to support. An article on the WotC website just this week mentioned that Wizards believes the stores are a very important part of the game. I can’t remember which article though. I’m pretty certain I read it yesterday or the day before though.

    On a side note I’ve seen a very interesting value-add starting to pop up more lately: game stores that serve adult beverages. Long ago I had the idea that a store that had gaming space, that served coffee and snacks during the day, and alcohol and small meals (sandwiches, burgers, hot dogs) in the evening/night would make a killing, especially in NY where I live. This would create the true social atmosphere a store wants to cultivate, and it would give gamers a place to sate two “appetites” on a regular basis. If I had the cash to get a store like this off of the ground I’m certain it would make money. Would I get rich? Doubtfully. Still, I’m confident it would be a viable business. Seeing others living out this dream is great, and I wish them nothing but the best!

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47. I’m just amused that Borders is out of business now. I guess they *couldn’t* afford those coupons after all.

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